Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Boutet on January 24, 2012 at 5:43pm

I suspect that the U of R presence on the east side of the river kept the housing stabilized.  There are probably a lot of homes that belong to staff.  Meanwhile the demise of Taylor and other employers on the west side meant our side of the river went into disrepair.  The rapid university growth of the past 20 years and the installation of the foot bridge have opened up the west side to student housing into a relatively deteriorated neighborhood.  That is just a guess. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kathleen Connelly on February 2, 2012 at 4:02pm

It sure seems that lack of enforcement of existing regulations is a huge issue that afflicts the entire ward across a wide range of issues. There seems to be an enormous gap, for whatever reason(s), between residents’ needs and expectations of enforcement and the official response. I think shortcomings regarding enforcement and problems with “predatory” landlords are something most of us can agree are problematic. But as much as I would love to have the existing regulations fully and consistently enforced in my area, I think there is a misperception that this in itself would take care of the problems. Unfortunately, while it would be incredibly welcome and certainly helpful, it’s not going to cure the problems of having a heavy concentration of college students in a “residential” (R1) area.

 

Some very persistent and disruptive problems are basically unenforceable. For example, there is considerable intermittent noise between 10pm and 3am on a daily basis. People going in and out of houses, to and from cars, talking on the porch, in the yard, on the sidewalk, on the street; shouting from the house to the street, giving a whoop or yell, shrieks of laughter. In nice weather, particularly, calling from room to room within the house and even normal conversations are audible enough to be disruptive. The students are generally very active at night (and very social) so that’s when the activity increases and generally becomes the most problematic. The noise mentioned is all a violation of the noise ordinance, but under current protocols it’s basically unenforceable. And because of the number of student rentals now in this area, it comes from several houses and many directions and with great regularity. Often I don’t know for sure which house(s) the noise is coming from, and by the time I can get out of bed, dressed and out to try to trace it it’s stopped, only to erupt again later. Where would I direct the police? Also, there are lots of group migrations up and down the streets, particularly Thursday-Saturday. They make considerable noise as they pass, frequently urinate in the yards and driveways and toss their cups, bottles and cans along the way. By the time the police could show up, even if there were a quick response, they would be long gone.

 

There are other problems with relying on the police for enforcement for this population and the issues they bring. If the police don’t hear anything they won’t stop. The students monitor the police scanners and will attempt to get everyone inside and quiet until the police pass by. Understandably, 911 calls about typical student problems on a weekend night are not going to be given a high priority by the police. It can be hours before a car drives by and the activity may have reached a lull or be over by the time they arrive. This gives the students the impression that what they’re doing is permissible and a pass to escalate, while it gives neighbors the impression that there’s nothing they can do to affect things. Do you request to speak to an officer and then wait for hours until the police are able to show up and then insist they issue a ticket (usually in full view of the students)? It’s not feasible when it happens so frequently and from so many locations, yet that is what the protocol involves. Even if a ticket is issued, it rarely makes much of an impression. Generally, the students are pretty affluent and when a ticket is divided between several individuals the cost is negligible and well worth the price to most.

 

Code violations are certainly rampant. Occupancy limits and 3^rd floor occupancy restrictions are routinely ignored without consequence. But even if there were an effort to enforce there would be difficulties and, while welcome, it wouldn’t necessarily solve a lot of the problems. For example, the most horrendous group of students to live next door to us also had the lowest number of official occupants (5), and the “least bad” had 8. Also, while I think there should be action in the face of occupancy violations, I don’t think it would be effective with this population for long. Their m.o. would just change and only 4 students would be “officially” on the lease and the rest would just be “hanging out” or “staying over”.

 

Another limitation to enforcement is the extreme transience of the population. Most enforcement takes several months to reach a level of consequences severe enough to demand attention. Normally that level is not even close to being reached before that group of students is on its way out and another is moving in. Then the entire process begins again. And this is true of multiple neighboring properties. It’s Groundhog Day to the nth. And again, the number of properties turning into student housing around here is growing rapidly. Starting at the Elmwood bridge you can fan out in any direction and the closest areas are quickly becoming student dominated: Elmwood from Plymouth extending down Scottsville rd.; Genesee in both directions to a few blocks north of Brooks; and east and west of Genesee st., also to a few blocks north of Brooks and its footbridge. Then there is the railroad bridge which is being modified to provide another access point to the area. Regardless of intentions or initial restrictions, it’s almost certain that as things are going, many of the 30 homes slated to be built on the former site of the Valley Court Apartments will transition to student housing, in much the same way that current owner-occupied homes are being converted. 

 

RIT has 17,000 students and housing for 7,400. UR has 4,000 students and does not currently have enough housing to support that enrollment which is expected to increase by 25% in the next few years. Obviously, the universities are counting on the larger community to provide housing for their students. Nevertheless, they don’t provide oversight for students living off campus. In a city that has great need and limited resources, they are relying on the larger community to provide policing, enforcement, education and oversight of their students. These services are considered necessary by the universities for monitoring students who live on campus, but once the students move off campus the responsibility is turned over to neighbors, police and the NSC offices. And many students move off campus specifically to be free of university oversight. I believe that the universities need to help, at the very least, provide education and oversight for off campus students. The universities should have records of where their off campus students are living for a variety of reasons (including student safety). The police, NSC office and campus officials should be able to coordinate regarding student incidents and problem properties, and the student code of conduct must extend to unwanted behaviors off campus as well as on. Currently, the major concern of UR regarding their students in the neighborhood has been concerning student “safety” issues, which are solely to “protect” students within our “high crime” community. UR and local landlords (many of whom are not currently code compliant) have been coordinating with the NSC office to ensure student safety (though not in the areas of unlawful occupancy etc.) and to educate students about how to keep themselves safe “across the bridge”. There is obviously a considerable security presence at the Riverview Apartments. UR has also extended transportation throughout the 19^th ward for their students. But there is nothing in place to deal with the issues college students invariably bring with them to a residential neighborhood and certainly nothing to keep our quality of life from being negatively affected. Recent public comments by spokespeople for RIT have been troubling (and enlightening) in terms of what they see as problematic. To me, at least as quoted, they show an unwillingness to take responsibility for poor student behavior and the focus of concern is instead on keeping students happy and attracting more of them. Their statements suggest that, from their perspective, the problem isn’t the poor behavior of their students living off campus, it’s that expectations of their students’ behavior in the larger community might negatively affect enrollment.

 

There are other neighborhoods around the city that have had, or are currently having, problems with student residents and the problems are basically all the same. I think the police and NSC offices need a new set of protocols in dealing with this population as they are not typical and the current protocols weren’t created with them in mind. I also think that neighbors, the police and NSC offices can’t, and shouldn’t be expected to, bear the full burden of educating and policing these students. The universities (and landlords) should be expected to do more than just profit from the students at our expense. They need to bear some of the costs and responsibilities that come with them, even when the students are not on campus. As I tried to point out in my last post, many, many communities across the country have faced these issues and have come up with a variety of strategies to handle them. I think it’s too late for anything to help my area. The balance has tipped and there’s no going back here. But for those areas that have yet to reach the point of no return, there is an opportunity to be proactive and to try to strike a balance between town and gown. A neighborhood with college students in it can be a fine place to live, but a college neighborhood, and I speak from experience, is something else altogether. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Karin on February 2, 2012 at 9:39pm

Wow. With all due respect, I don’t see how the migration of students, especially from the U of R, onto this side of the river is a bad thing. Rather, I think it’s one of the MOST PROMISING and POSITIVE developments over the past few years. In an attempt to keep this post short, I’ll focus on just three issues:

 

1). The mere fact that students actually WANT to live on this side of the river shows just how much the reputation of the 19^th Ward has DRASTICALLY IMPROVED over the past few years.

 

It used to be a joke on campus about how crossing the pedestrian bridge to the “bad” side would get you mugged, raped, or stabbed. Of course that perception may have always been inaccurate, but it was certainly prevalent. Now, students are EXCITED to live, visit, and shop on this side. If students are willing to venture to this “bad” area, then staff and families are more likely too as well. It would be stupid for us as a neighborhood to discourage these positive interactions.

 

2). The Law of Supply and Demand – With students and staff now on this side of the river, there will be more investments. I personally think that’s a GOOD thing.

 

But, some people on this forum only seem to focus on the possible negative aspects of those investments (e.g., parking, noise, an “offensive” Plymouth Roc name for a bar). Are you serious!?!?

 

How about recognizing that more RESPECTABLE businesses might be willing to open up here if a steady stream of potential customers, especially those with lots of disposable income, are available. Not only could we gain businesses that would help improve the quality of life for EVERYONE (e.g., grocery stores, fitness/recreational areas, dining options, etc.) but crime should continue to decrease. Let’s be realistic - the University is spending a lot money on this side of the river and we all know they will do what it takes to protect their investment. Whether it means exerting political pressure or increasing security/police patrols, we will all benefit if the neighborhood is safer. In my opinion, this greater good is worth having to deal with a few of the growing pains of figuring out parking or code enforcement.

 

3). Finally, why can’t U of R students be viewed as GOOD neighbors? For the most part, the student body is responsible, hard-working, and socially-conscious. We’re talking about a relatively selective private university where the average freshman graduated high school with a 3.8 GPA while fulfilling multiple leadership positions and community service obligations. This is NOT a party school where students get completely hammered every single weekend. I’m not even going to comment on the many graduate students who are studying in MBA, Ph.D., and M.D. programs. Clearly those students are dedicating huge chunks of their lives to “make a difference” in the world. So, a little bit of respect isn’t out-of-line. Maybe it’s just me, but I’d much rather live next door to a student who works hard most the time and drinks a little bit on a Saturday compared to living next door to a bunch of unemployed high school drop-outs with criminal records who spend their free time loitering at corner stores.

 

p.s. And for those of you who don’t want U of R students living in the house next door, well don’t worry. The campus announced last week that they’re going to build more dorms. Reading the article, and then the comments, might be beneficial for some of you –

http://www.campustimes.org/2012/01/26/ur-building-new-housing-in-plex/

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Karin on February 2, 2012 at 10:06pm

And here's an interesting perspective from RIT students on what living in the 19th Ward is like: http://reportermag.com/article/01-27-2012/going-off-the-grid

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DeWain Feller on February 3, 2012 at 8:16am

As President of the 19th Ward Community Association, I'd like to emphasize that the issues that we are discussing here really are issues about the enforcement (or lack thereof) of codes and laws.  This applies to everyone, and not just students.  It is important to keep in mind that the most egregious problems in our neighborhood (with drug dealing, shootings, loitering and intimidation) involve non-students.

We should be welcoming students into our neighborhood, and we absolutely should not be branding all students as problem residents.  While some students are nuisance party animals, most simply are not.  We should not stereotype and ostracize ANY group based on the actions of individuals.  We would not tolerate a discussion that labeled African Americans, Hispanics or gays as undesirables that we need limit in our neighborhood, so we should not tolerate any talk of limiting students (or any other group) in our neighborhood.  Individuals who commit an offense need to be held accountable for their actions; however, no one should be punished for the actions of someone else.

That being said, it does seem that the police can be lax in enforcing nuisance problems with students based on the fact that they are students.  The same rules should apply to everyone, and we need to insist that laws and codes be enforced in our neighborhood.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Margy Meath on February 3, 2012 at 6:00pm

Well said DeWain! I don't know if the police are more lax with students.... in my experienced the police seem 'lax' with almost anything related to 'minor' things such as noise, parking, etc... If a noise complaint in a heavily populated student housing area was taken seriously, the message would travel quickly that noise and loud parties are not tolerated here- period! While the police may not be able to issue a 'ticket' for something they don't witness, they certainly CAN knock on a door, intervene and let people know that there has been a complaint. In doing so, they could - potentially - come across other things needing attention!

I don't quite get the idea that the UR should somehow be held responsible for the behavior of students who live off-campus.... Certainly, they could help with student engagement in our community but to suggest that they are responsible for the behavior of adults seems odd.

I continue to hold NSC/Code and RPD responsible for doing their jobs - keeping the peace, following the code/laws and intervening in a timely manner when citizens ask for their help. The fact that homes are being modified without permits, etc is a HUGE concern and one that ONLY officials can intervene with. Perhaps we need the MAYOR's attention on this issue.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Sweetland on February 4, 2012 at 12:12am

I also agree with DeWain's message 100%.  And those others that would not single out a group, based on performance of a few.  We must welcome all to the neighborhood.  If there are problems, let the system address them.  If the system is failing, let's address that. Code violations seem to be the major problem. 

If homes are being modified, etc., it is a concern, yes, huge, but we need to make the NSC responsible for taking care of this.  If they don't, take it to City Council.  I would not make it the Mayor's concern until all options have been explored.  Let's see what the new LT at NSC can accomplish.

As far as the UR being responsible for behavior of adults living off campus, that is absurd.  They are people renting houses or owning houses and that has nothing to do with the UR as long as they do not live there.   It is like you or me owning or renting your own house.   It is up to the people living there to follow the community codes and laws.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jason Dobbs on February 3, 2012 at 10:40am

I have had UofR students next door since I moved in, there have been 0 problems.

I am pretty sure the other neighbors that have been shot at and set on fire were not students of any local institutions of higher learning.

Solo cups are easier to clean up than dime bags and blunt wrappers.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Margy Meath on February 2, 2012 at 10:18pm

Colleen McCarthy at UR might be a good contact for you to discuss your concerns. Her contact information is here:

Colleen C. McCarthy
Assistant Director for Local Government and Community Relations
http://www.ogcr.rochester.edu/

University of Rochester
601 Elmwood Ave., Box 706
Rochester, NY 14642
585.273.5955 (office)
585.276.2353 (fax)
Colleen_McCarthy@urmc.rochester.edu

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• Next ›
• Page