Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Margy Meath on February 1, 2009 at 4:40pm

What a thoughtful and honest start to this discussion Shawn- thank you!
I've also been thinking a lot about this shooting and the response although from a slightly different perspective that i will share in a bit. But, to build on your thoughts, I agree! It seems that the police or political response is often adjusted based on the perceived value of the particular 'victim'. One of my continuing concerns regarding the 19th ward specifically has been the perception that some community members, some streets, some parts of the neighborhood are more important than others. I've also personally experienced that an 'average' citizen can address a concern (for example with the NET office) and get no response while a more 'valued' citizen gets an immediate response. Likewise, a shooting on Thurston last year got NO attention from the 19WCA while the shooting on a more 'residential' street prompted a special meeting with the police and other elected officials. Our city and surrounding area is FILLED with "US" and "THEM" mentality - the good/bad, the democrat/republican, the homeowner/renter, old/young, rich/poor, black/white, suburb/city, etc, etc.... in each of these scenarios one group often sees themselves as vastly different than the other while when in reality we all have (I HOPE) some basic 'sameness' in our collective humanity!
Some of my additional thoughts about this particular shooting is that we are in far greater trouble than I've previously believed given the fact that the police are no longer even safe in our city. To shoot at an officer in broad day light in a completely unprovoked manner scares the hell out of me! I appreciate the police response to find the shooter and I'd appreciate a very similar response to every other shooting that occurs in this city!

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Permalink Reply by Mark Sweetland on February 2, 2009 at 1:36am

I agree with both comments. The fact is, though, if a public employee such as a police officer is shot, their boss must say something. That would be the mayor, the chief of police, and in this case, the governor was in town.

I would like an example of how a "more valued" citizen gets an immediate response from the NSC office than an "average" citizen. You say a shooting on a residential road got more attention than one on Thurston Rd. I am not contradicting anything you are saying, but could that be simply because individuals who lived there took some action? The 19th Ward Community Association is comprised of volunteers. If someone volunteers to head something up, maybe something happens. The 19th WCA is only driven by its members. On the other hand, I see how one might think more happens for certain areas, but that is because their area members are more involved.

On my street, there are no other people involved in the 19th WCA. They are not involved in anything, with the exception of one man who is a church pastor. He incidentally provides free "older" food for the community from Wegmans each Friday in his front yard at 86 Enterprise St, at about 11:30 AM, for the taking.

And yes, about this shooting ... we are in trouble and I hope every effort is made to find the person who did this. This was a police officer, and if you think a similar effort would be made to every other shooting, dream on! Just the facts, Maam! (Truly, I am not being disrespectful, just reality. I agree with most of what you said.)

Mark

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Permalink Reply by Margy Meath on February 2, 2009 at 8:58am

Mark (and others) -
I don't want to get into details about 'average' vs. 'valued' citizens in terms of specific examples related to the NSC, etc as the details of that would simply start more of an 'us' and 'them' and that wasn't my intent in using it as an example.

My point was that people who are viewed as more 'valuable' by general society tend to get more and those viewed as less valuable get less. The New Orleans Katrina response is another example of this! The discrimination that people with disabilities face every single day is, in part, because 'those people' are viewed as less valuable or less important.

In terms of the police, I fully understand the all out response to this most recent shooting and I hope that they catch and fully prosecute the shooter.
I am not sure why i shouldn't expect the same for someone who gets shot on my street or around the corner from me...... yes, a 'gang banger' chooses a lifestyle that is much more likely to get him/her killed but does this make the violence somehow more acceptable or undeserving of an all out response!? Should the response vary depending on the perceived value of the intended victim?? If so, how does this impact those of us who are seen as 'valuable' but choose to live in a neighborhood where "less valuable' people live? Might Thurston Road and/or other troublesome areas of the city be safer if the police went door to door looking for shooters and drug dealers, etc?
Just questions...... and a continuing hope that something can work to stop ALL of this senseless violence!

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Permalink Reply by Georgia NeSmith on February 2, 2009 at 12:45pm

In principle, yes Margy, I agree. Every life is worth saving and every life taken or damaged requires swift justice.

But the reality is resources are limited and priorities have to be set. Like it or not, we do not live with unlimited resources.

Moreover, the main reason killers of gang members and other criminals are not brought to justice has more to do with the "don't snitch" culture that surrounds them in the first place than with any lack of commitment on the part of the RPD.

If those lives were truly valued by the people to whom those victims matter, everybody would start talking the minute anything happens.

When people start talking, you'll see more justice served.

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Permalink Reply by Georgia NeSmith on February 2, 2009 at 4:26am

Here's the thing, why a police officer being shot will get more attention:

A police officer is a representative of the state and a representative of "order." When a police officer gets shot it is a greater challenge to order than when a non-official civilian gets shot. He is more than an individual.

Furthermore, police officers put their lives on the line every single day for all of us. The young man in a gang who is sitting in a car on Thurston Rd. who gets shot by a rival gang member has chosen to put his life on the line for whatever reason, but is sure isn't for all the rest of us.

I'm sorry, but yes, a police officer's life ranks higher to me than a gang member. I don't want to see either of them die, but please let's be real about this.

In this case apparently the officer was not even engaged in anything other than a verbal altercation with citizens. He was leaving the scene when he was shot.

If a police officer can get shot under such circumstances it does not bode well for the safety of the rest of us, because he is charged with protecting OUR safety as well as his own.

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Permalink Reply by ShannonG on February 2, 2009 at 10:24am

I have to agree that I feel the same way as Sheri on this one. Shooting a cop in the back of the head in broad daylight changes things for me. It is an attempt at murdering a cop, any cop, plain and simple. And I am not going to weigh in on the whose life is worth more, I don't feel I am quailifed to make such a distinction and I would think that is it something others would hesitate doing as well.

I don't like cops, I have never had a single positive interaction with one of them. And any comments about how I'm not a black male so therefor I couldn't possibly know what it's like to interact with them is of course correct but rather disengenuous. I have been jumped beaten and pursued by blacks in this neighborhod and I have been hassled and followed home in my younger years by the cops. So yeah I have a valid opinion.

But the cops are out there day after day after day keeping a lid on this stuff and when one of them is basically a target for extermination, a head shot can be certainly be taken for that, then it just changes things.

And yes I am a little more worried about that cop than some guy who runs with drug dealers, shoots at people for "disrespecting" them and eyeing me like am I am the enemy, breaks into my car, jumps me on the street because I am white or says stuff to me just because of who I am.
Do I think his life is worth less? No but his contribution certainly is.

I just feel awful for the cop, just I do when yet another kid's life ends on Thurston Road. but unil a cop shoots the back of a kid's head off with a shot solely meant to kill him I don't want to hear about the poor boys in the 'hood.

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Permalink Reply by Heidi on February 2, 2009 at 1:50pm

The fact that a young officer was shot in the back of the head while leaving what seems to be a fairly quiet and peacable situation is quite disturbing. The fact that the person who picked up the gun and took aim made the conscious decision to then pull the trigger, is quite horrific. When a person doing their daily job requirements is gunned down for no reason, there is need for extreme concern.

On the topic of the "us -v- them" mentality, it just is what it is. It's the reality that we all live in, and even though we would never want to admit this, it is human. Everyone makes a decision to "take a side" on any issue that is put before them. It doesn't matter what community you live in. It is happening around the world. The fact that Rochester faces these unfortunate events daily is quite sad, but it is the reality that every city faces. The nature of a cops job is to try to enforce the laws that are meant to protect the citizens. That alone creates enemies. There are always going to be those that feel that the laws are too strict, or that some are unnecessary, and this creates a rift. Then when you bring into it a person who has grown up with the reality of having to personally face friends and family dying right in front of them and wondering where the help was for them, there is certainly going to be a feeling of distrust and segregation. Whether we think that it is an acceptable view or not, it is the reality for them. Granted, there are many people that make the decision to be involved in criminal activity everyday, but there are also many that are surrounded by it simply because of where they live. You can't tell me that they feel safe and secure in their homes. Again creating that "us/them" situation.

My point in all this is that, there will always be an "us/them" mentality because there will always be a difference in the way certain situations or even people themselves are treated. It's unrealistic to believe that this sort of segregation will not always exist. I don't mean to be the town pessimist here, I'm just being a realist. Everyone's views are based on where they live, how they were raised, what career they've chosen, whether or not they attend church, what their cultural background is, etc... It is human to have an opinion and take sides. There will always be people on the "wrong" side.

Obviously this was not intended as a defense for the person that made the decision to shoot the officer. There are certain universal rights and wrongs that should exist among eveyone. And making the decision to attempt to take someone else's life is definitely one of the biggies. I was simply wanting to point out that there will always be sides and how much that is a part of all of us.


My prayers are with the police officer and his family.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn on February 2, 2009 at 11:39pm

I want to thank everyone for their thought provoking, honest discussions. I guess I was feeling frustrated, upset and yes, maybe a little frighten at what had just happened in our city. And I felt as if I had to let it out.

I guess I still hold onto some of my youthful naivety and want to believe that we are all equal, and should be treated equally no matter what. But to think that way is black and white, in a world that is so very much shades of gray. There are layer and layers to all our lives, and we are not all good, and we are all not bad, but we are all human.

Thanks for keeping the discussions civil, and "listening" to my rant. It is folks like you that make Rochester a great place to live! I am blessed to call you all neighbors.

Thank you ;)
-Shawn

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Permalink Reply by Mark Sweetland on February 3, 2009 at 3:20am

Thanks for a great site.

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Permalink Reply by Margy Meath on February 3, 2009 at 3:05pm

a 14 (almost 15 year old) was arrested for this crime this morning. Actually, per the news he turned himself in (with attorney). One can probably assume that his family knows something about this and assisted him in obtaining an attorney.......
I think it scares me even more to think about a 14 year old commiting this crime especially since he will get very limited time in prison, etc. Does this limited time in the 'system' mean more young people will be recruited to do really bad things? is there any chance a kid like this can go 'in' the system and come out and not re-offend?? How does the role of parents, schools, etc fit into what happened with him???
so many questions........

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Permalink Reply by Mark Sweetland on February 4, 2009 at 12:46am

From what I heard, he will not get limited time in prison, as he is being tried as an adult for attempted murder. On the news tonight, the mayor addressed the question of exactly what you mention, the role of schools, etc. He specifically mentioned plans regarding work for after school. However, in this situation, there were other problems. The individual responsible had been out of school after the sixth grade, although he was in some youth and justice system group. Obviously, fell through the cracks, and yes, it is too bad the system cannot help everyone. Some people can't be helped, and this is the outcome.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Sweetland on February 4, 2009 at 5:30pm

Error in what I heard: He will not be tried as an adult, but as a juvenile, so Margy, you are right about limited time in prison... 3 1/2 to 10 years.

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